Intro and forums versus chats

I am here because of the toot and the subsequent discussion. The toot was about the desirability of forums. In the discussion, I suggested starting a forum for the discussion. And by I was directed here.

The idea have been that the Mastodon discussion had been too comlex and the points raised too important to be carried in the chat environmet and that the discussion may be examined and continued in a more structured forum enviroment. That is my goal here :slightly_smiling_face:

Is this forum a good place for such a general discussion? If so, where to start it?

1 Like

Possibly. What are the topics you’d like to discuss?

1 Like

Welcome @jokibitzer. You can find out about purpose of this community, and the forum categories in Welcome to SocialHub introduction topic. Fediversity may be a good category.

“How do we bring federated forums into the Fediverse as open alternative to Discord & Slack?” might be a good topic for discussion. There are 3 forum softwares discussing an integrtion to the Fediverse already. They are Discourse, Flarum and NodeBB. (Note: Some people call forum-enabled Fediverse the Threadiverse.)

This community is not so generic that a “FOSS projects shouldn’t use Discord” is on-topic here.


@aschrijver , thank you for the assistance with my sign up, for the welcome and for the guidance.

I would like to start from two directions. One is very specific. The other is very abstract. And, for me, they are related:

  • Analysis of the above mentioned toot and the tree of subsequent boosts and replies. (My instance now lists 109 boosts 76 replies.)
  • How we should self-organize so that our efforts effectively make the world a better place, or at least effectively resist change for the worse.

My methodology is to use a forum, because I agree with, which is part of the analyzed discussion:

I also have the hot take that forums are technologically, and sometimes culturally, superior to all forms of social media which have been invented since.


Just a quick note. When I expand the original post logged in I see the count 109 boosts and 76 replies. When I get the the toot url’s from the page. There is 209 toots. When I am not logged to the local url is resolved to the original toot. Clicking on gets me to . Scrolling down gets me to toots I do not see on . Going to original post: . And that looks interesting:

I made a no-database forum that just stores threads as RSS feeds exactly because I found phpBB to be too heavy and complicated:

I am not interested any more. Basicaly because of:

I do not believe in the effectiveness of creating and using new software for tasks already done by old software. My mind is turning back to phpBB. I am not happy with this Discourse thing either.

People I mingle with have difficulties to use anything but the most basic functions (or even the most basic functions!) of anything they use. And they are irresistibly drawn to “applications” which lead them along an easy path. The “application” controls the user.

I do not believe in the effectiveness of making it easier for the users. I do not believe in the effectiveness of leading the users “our way”. I believe the power of the forces they lead them “their way” is overwhelming.

I believe in autopoietic cooperation of small groups independent of the tools they are using. And I believe in big cooperations growing upward from life-giving soil of many small autopoietic cooperations, containing them and supporting them.

I want small autopoietic cooperations I take part in, rather, to use phpBB than the more simple, elegant, seductive or what alternatives. I want them willing to learn, to teach, to control, to lead, to support, or whatever, rather than to go along the way they are led along by forces outside of our small autopoietic cooperation.


I love this term, and highly believe in the concept behind it. Thanks for coining it.

I also believe in a term that Chris Gebhardt once coined (in a different context), and that is App Free Computing. An application is a silo where its creators decide exactly what you get. You get few choices in a particular domain (e.g. microblogging apps), and every candidate has 80% overlap of the same functionality.

App Free Computing entail a finer-grained choreography of components and services that determine your social experience.

1 Like

Well, thank you :slight_smile: For me, this thing, the autopoietic cooperation is the crucial matter of how our world will look like. If, indeed, there will be our world. I believe that the ability of small autopoietic cooperation is deeply built in us, human beings. However the development of big cooperations, both societal and technological, greatly reduces practicing it. I perceive humans arround me who have not done anything like it in their adult lifes. I am trying and trying and trying to initiate small autopoietic cooperations whereever I go :slightly_smiling_face:

I flipped through the paper. It is a little bit too heavy for me :slightly_smiling_face: I guess your, @aschrijver and the forum’s here, focus differs from mine. You develop standards and software. Technology. Tools. Praise and thanks for that :slightly_smiling_face: I provoke people to free themselves from any external limitation and start playing with each other. I think we had been able to do that as kids. Um, is this a corn cob? No, it’s a princess. So for me it’s not so important what toys I give people, but rather how to use old, available and simple technologies for something new. And only if the group comes to the conclusion it needs this or that, then it introduces it.

1 Like

I don’t think the former is doing what the latter is doing. And the latter supports “bbcode”. So I’m interested in learning what makes you unhappy.

1 Like

I thought I was talking about two types of software(?) which are used to run “forums”. An older one, phpBB, as here: And a newer one, Discourse, as here, at (@how , I would like you take part at You will need an invitation for that. I can arrange it.)

And I prefer the old one to the new one. I doubt, I am able to explain why. Perhaps because I prefer sober, modest, ascetic, restrained, monochrome, simple and static to gourmet, colorful, complex and dynamic. Is it a matter of taste?

There is fork from this thread here: Autopoiesis: Self-organization and self-creation in grassroots settings - #2 by jokibitzer - Vision - Discuss Social Coding

1 Like

I’m sorry I don’t understand this site. It wants me to use Gaggle Translate, but I can’t find any content in it. What is this about?

Until these two forums are federated, I can’t see why you would do that.

1 Like

As described above:

I came here because of the mentioned Mastodon discussion about forums versus chats. came into being as another reaction to the same discussion and to some other impulses.

I wrote “what is it about” there, in Czech. This mess with languages is no coincidence. It is not a bug. It is a feature. I qoute from the text, using machine translation:

So, please, read the post via your favorite way of translation or use the one provided on site:

@how and others, I’ll be happy if you join us there and if we create something which we all would like :slightly_smiling_face:

(To join, you would need an invitation, which I can arrange.)

All generalisations are false :wink: But I agree that forums are very useful for a focused, long form discussion, which might unfold over weeks or months. Producing insights that are worth archiving and returning to.

Chat rooms are better for ephemeral brainstorming among a defined group, which can end up being clutter on a forum, with minimal archival value.

Micro-posting is good for ephemeral brainstorming among a diffuse and potentially diverse group of people. It can be a good way to identify who is interested enough in a discussion to join a forum or chat room to dig deeper into it.


(The original toot has now 1.8K boosts.)
And there I already touched someting

Yes, pretty much any tool has some use. But.

You and me and anybody and any group and any society has only limited recources. Recources spent on one tool are not available for another one.

I believe that pretty much any recource we are spending on chats and mikro-posting should be better spend on a forum. (The ratio is not right!)

There are already various federated forums that you can use today, assuming that you consider Reddit as a type of forum:


I, sort of, understand that the fucus here ( is on tools. And I thank all you, who anable tools like - this forum, Mastodon, LibreOffice, phpBB, notepad++, Calibre, MPC-HC…

However I believe, that “we” should direct more recources to human to human interection of certain quality: pairs or small groups, long-term, autopoietic, using tools but independent of them…

I am trying to do it here:

1 Like

Yep, our copying of #dotcons will only take us so far… think we are past the stage now when this is actually helping the openweb and the people who make it up. Now it’s more a question of holding ground as the #mainstreming rushes in… this is human to human and trust #4opens is a tool for this.

1 Like

Ok, human to human and trust sounds good. I found Let us see what happens when I interact :slightly_smiling_face:

EDIT: Now, I am in, there, but what? Is it about money? I think I do not want involve money in what I am trying to do…

You found the funding side of the project the coding side is offline at mo as are meay of our instances sadly. UPDATE site back online

You can find lots of background on the blog if you click past the SSL that’s there to point at centralised security… best i can offer till the codeing site back oneline, supposed to be soon…

Hope you find it interesting